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Kirby 3.6 => target group#311

M

Once I came to Kirby for it’s simplicity, but more and more complexity was added and language spoken more and more geared towards developers. Exiting to hear that “3.6 will make Kirby more stable, more extendable, and much more fun for years to come”.
But will it make things easier, for the non-developer also? The language spoken on the 3.6 microsite is imho again very much addressing the seasoned developers. I hope in the future “much more fun for years to come” is also in store for a large group of people with different types of expertise?

2 months ago

I’m sorry to hear that the 3.6 info so far has given you this impression. This release is quite the opposite of only focusing on developers, but I admit the developer preview/3.6 microsite can bew misleading. The microsite really is about the alpha phase, we want to get plugin developers on board to get their plugins ready exactly so it will be a very easy update for “normal” users later when we release 3.6. So you are right, the language on the microsite is addressing developers for a reason - but this shouldn’t be mistaken as a sign that the 3.6 release will be just aimed at developers.

Under the hood, this relese introduces a new architecture which is a big investment in a more simple, less bloated future and it unblocks tons of features for non-developers. If you look at the top 10 requested features here on Nolt (many of them non-developer features), probably 8-9 of them have been impossible to realize. With the framework changes we will be able to tackle them in the upcoming month. It’s all about laying the foundations. We also do see really great plugins like Retour, Matomo or Plausible that will heavily benefit from a better architecture for custom views.

And slimming down the Panel files will make the whole Panel experience faster, more stable - and therefore more joyful for non-developers who work in the Panel every day.

Hope this helps a little to open up a different perspective on 3.6 - we are quite confident that non-developers will be happy with it.

2 months ago

Would be also interesting to hear where you think we are losing the simplicity/where we could make things easier for non-developers.

We spend a lot of time discussing features to live up to this simplicity we all love about Kirby ourselves. And aim to make any additional features as progressive enhancements: being able to use Kirby as always simple and only dive into these maybe more complex features if you have the need for them.

2 months ago
M

“Would be also interesting to hear where you think we are losing the simplicity/where we could make things easier for non-developers.”

I think the general language on the site is geared towards developers, although cookbook recipes help. The level of abstraction in the (excellent) reference is for developers: lots of ways the manipulate your content, makes your head spin, but few examples. For example, I like to check if a block is used so I can load some js file, it’s a very practical thing to do but not easy to figure out and I find myself going through forum threads to find a solution, which you will.

Setting up blueprints with tabs and lots of options gets very messy very quickly, I’m always fighting with the yaml structure. There are a lot of blueprint examples but I don’t find it easy to find.

Then creating previews for custom blocks is a whole different ball game and you better get up to scratch with Vue otherwise you will spend loads of time.

So and last you have get to code the front end which can turn into php spaghetti quickly and page models and controllers and plugins all make things more complex/abstract.

I’ve got enough experience with Kirby to deal with all these bits but I can’t realy say, like in the past, Kirby is easy to use. Yes if you use it without the panel and just text files you can set it up quite nicely. I guess that’s still what I like best about Kirby.

Anyway, I’m curious about 3.6 and how simplicity will be introduced for non developers, good luck!

2 months ago

I think the general language on the site is geared towards developers, although cookbook recipes help. The level of abstraction in the (excellent) reference is for developers: lots of ways the manipulate your content, makes your head spin, but few examples.

Our goal is to implement Kirby features in “layers”. Like Nico wrote, it’s a bit like progressive enhancement: Kirby sites can be really simple (even without using the Panel at all), but they can also be customized to fit even large corporations and organizational structures. It’s really important to us that every advanced feature stays optional and gets out of the way of all devs who want to build simple sites.

Our docs reflect that idea: The guide is the introduction for general concepts and useful to get started, the cookbook contains practical examples for different use cases and the reference contains the details about possible integrations with Kirby.

It’s always difficult to explain complex concepts in simple terms, we still want to provide all the details for those who need them. Good point regarding the missing examples: Unfortunately it’s sometimes quite difficult to think of every use case when writing these examples. PRs or issues in the getkirby.com repo on GitHub are well appreciated.

Also, as you wrote, we have our forum: If something in our docs makes your head spin or you need a practical example for your task, then feel free to ask in our forum at any time.

Setting up blueprints with tabs and lots of options gets very messy very quickly, I’m always fighting with the yaml structure.

Yep, that’s true. Blueprints can be really simple, but as you write they can get really complex with complex structures. We have plans to build a blueprint editor that can help to set them up visually. There’s no timeframe yet, but it’s on our list.

So and last you have get to code the front end which can turn into php spaghetti quickly and page models and controllers and plugins all make things more complex/abstract.

I think that’s always the case when programming. Either you get spagetti or you get abstractions. Solutions in between can get quite complex as well as they often need to do some magic that is then hard to understand.

2 months ago
?

“PRs or issues in the getkirby.com repo on GitHub …”
About that, in the past issues in the forum where also appreciated ;-)

“We have plans to build a blueprint editor”
Sounds good!

“I think that’s always the case when programming.”
Sure, mind you, I did some work on a Craft site recently and the templates were like a breath of fresh air to me; some macro’s at the top and nice, clean and very readable code.

2 months ago

About that, in the past issues in the forum where also appreciated ;-)

The forum is great for discussions, e.g. if it’s not clear yet whether there is an issue. Actionable issues and especially PRs belong on GitHub though as we can take care of them much quicker that way.

I did some work on a Craft site recently and the templates were like a breath of fresh air to me; some macro’s at the top and nice, clean and very readable code.

To be honest we don’t really look at what our competition is doing (we don’t want to clone features from elsewhere). So I don’t fully know how Craft’s templates work. I do remember they use Twig, correct? Is it that what makes templating easier for you? Twig macros are like our snippets if I understand them correctly. Not in the same file, but that also increases render performance and allows to reuse snippets in different templates or even different snippets.

2 months ago

I’m closing this as it’s more a general discussion than an actionable idea. That doesn’t mean that these prespectives haven’t been great insights - they have - and I’d be happy to continue this exchange in the forum or on Discord.

a month ago
Changed the status to
Archived
a month ago